Perfecting a language

[Joanbunting Profile]

I know my French is not good enough (neither is my English) but M and i have talked about it and have decided that next week we only talk etc in French. Now does this mean I can only post in French? How would this go down?

I think I might go mad

[Tatihou Profile]

I'm learning Flemish Dutch this week so you post in French and I'll reply in Flemish. How's that? We'll be Belgian nationals in no time...

[Joanbunting Profile]

Hi Tatihou.

Fantastic idea - i can get my nextdoor neighbour who is completely tri-lingual in Dutch, French and English to translate for me! Even her 2 year old speaks Dutch and French. Some people are just born like that I think - i wish i had the jeans ( ) In mitigation I have to say that the first words of French I ever spoke were at my "O" level French oral exam. 4 years of open your book at page x and do excercises a-z doesn't make you fluent in anything except boredom.

I have been told that I can only watch Wimbledon on French TV - at least second week I'll get the Beeb.

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

Yep, total immersion is the way to go.
I confess I'm surprised your French isn't fluent living over there.

Do you rely on someone else to do your translating?

You can pull yourself away from the English environment and take up a hobby/ small job/ interest that is immersed totally in French.

[Wokman Profile Website]

I speak several languages and I am bilingual as I have lived in the Netherlands for about 30 years, so no problem with Dutch/Flemish. My daughters still live in the Netherlands.
Afrikaans is not a world away from Dutch as they are somewhat similar in a lot of ways. German is a bit more difficult although the above languages are Germanic.
My French is hopeless compared to what it used to be, but I am very fluent in talking gibberish and rubbish

[Joanbunting Profile]

Yep, total immersion is the way to go.
I confess I'm surprised your French isn't fluent living over there.

Do you rely on someone else to do your translating?

You can pull yourself away from the English environment and take up a hobby/ small job/ interest that is immersed totally in French.

Hi Gill

No, I am fine most of the time. People think i am fluent and my accent is good. I am fine in everyday or even serious conversation etc but M thinks I ought to raise my game and I understand why. My writing is terrible - but then it is in English. I don't rely on anyone to translate but bi-lingual is not the same as fluent. The thing I find really hard is answering the phone - but again I do in English. I usually live in a totally French environment but I do watch quite a lot of Brit TV and listen to a lot of radio. For M it doesn't matter, he switches from one to the other effortlessly as does DD and that is what I want to do

I think it has something to do with musicality. M and DD are both very very musical I am a bit but not as much, Our Danish friend who mangles every language she attempts is not at all musical. She has the words but they come out all mangled because she can't hear the sounds she should be making. Our tri-lingual neighbour is incredibly musical. We can hear her singing and playing the piano for her kids and it is a joy.

What i am trying to say is must try harder!

PS My Geordie is excellent

[Tatihou Profile]

I confess I'm surprised your French isn't fluent living over there.

First define 'fluent".

I define it as being completely at ease in a language to the point of hardly noticing which language you are speaking, not pausing to catch up when there's a random change of subject, not pausing to find the right words or stopping to think about verb endings, gender dependencies, etc, having ideomatic fluency...

Being perfectly able to argue your case at the tax office (and win!) communicate on medical things, go on an accountancy course or read le Fig doesn't equal fluency. And joining a few French clubs or associations will help but isn't - in my experience - sufficient.

ps: I'm tone deaf too and am a classic case of the vache espagnole.

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

Ah Tatihou, Joan has explained that she is indeed fluent.
I had read the opening post as not fluent at first, and asking for advice and suggestions.

Which are clearly not really needed here.

[Joanbunting Profile]

I confess I'm surprised your French isn't fluent living over there.

First define 'fluent".

I define it as being completely at ease in a language to the point of hardly noticing which language you are speaking, not pausing to catch up when there's a random change of subject, not pausing to find the right words or stopping to think about verb endings, gender dependencies, etc, having ideomatic fluency...

Being perfectly able to argue your case at the tax office (and win!) communicate on medical things, go on an accountancy course or read le Fig doesn't equal fluency. And joining a few French clubs or associations will help but isn't - in my experience - sufficient.

ps: I'm tone deaf too and am a classic case of the vache espagnole.

Hi Tatihou

Well put. I could never do an accountancy course in any language . Oh yes you do need to be able to argue your case quite a lot, in tax offices and elswhere and several times we have had to go with non-French speaking friends to doctors' appointments.

I got over the grammar thing at first by ignoring tenses and genders and batting on regardless and must have sounded like the policeman in 'Allo 'Allo ie rather worse than a vache espagnole

Our neighbours were fabulous to me though and gently corrected , repeated the right sentence or patiently waited for me to sort out what I was saying, so bit by bit things improved but as I say, could do better.

Do you dream in French Tati?? When I began to I really felt I was making progress

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

First define 'fluent".

I think fluent is a subjective term, different from one person to another.
In general, I'd say it's being with a group of 2 or more people and understanding and conversing perfectly with them, and keeping up.

Sometimes, it's when a local cannot tell which country you come from, although they know you are foreign. You are not what as good as a "native speaker" however.

And when you are at ease with any given situation in the country, without getting the pocket dictionary out.
It isn't however, not making mistakes.

I stick out like a sore thumb when I'm speaking Spanish and French, as one basque woman put it: hablas muy correctamente.
I'm rather too formal.

Bi-lingual, to me - is pretty much both are your first language. Neither one nor the other is dominant.

[Joanbunting Profile]

Hi Gill

I like your description. People tend to think M is from Alsace - so he does have a slight accent - but not British.
DD who was at uni in Grenoble for some time speaks with an accent from there.

On the other hand it is often considered to be more attractive to have a distinct accent - so I'll stick to sexy Geordie although some tell me I have a distinct Provencal accent and that really puzzles them. It is not surprising as I learned almost all my French right here.

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

I'm impressed, Joan. Both to be taken for French.

[Joanbunting Profile]

I only bred one of them, though all the genes came from the other side

DD is now the link for French speaking spouses so she still get lots of chances to keep up - although she says that all she has to do is keep her ear in so to speak. GD clearly has the same gifts - she does French and Latin at school and has not a single problem with either - unlike her Granny who was kicked out of Latin classes after a couple of years (thank goodness)

[Joanbunting Profile]

I wish to report that the week went reasonably well, except there were Anglophone guests in DD's house - all non- French speaking - so I had to lapse several times. I also had to lapse when I discovered that there had been really scary floods in the Newcastle area and I had to ring to see if a very old, very old friend was ok. though i did ring another French speaking friend who was mystified as to why I was speaking French, until I explained.

I read and watched and have come to the conclusion that French TV is utter carp and even the sports commentaries have manic presenters who just scream constantly - they make the River Pageant fiasco look professional.

PS The South Africans staying in DD's house were most impressed that we even spoke French to each other but I still haven't mastered the subjunctive

We think now that maybe one day on one off might work better.

[Tatihou Profile]

I enjoy French coverage of British "events" because they have a slight sarkiness of tone which is refreshing and entertaining. I watched some of the royal wedding on one of the TFs and chortled so much I wish I'd watched more.

Contrarily, on the odd occasion I watch French political interviews, I long for a Paxman or a Humphreys - though acknowledging both of them have their faults.

[Joanbunting Profile]

Completely correct about things like The Wedding we tend to flip between the two but sport absolutely not except for La Tour (we are addicts) . You are so right about political "debates" - can Jeremy Paxton speak French please?

PS Tati - can you "do" the subjunctive? If so i am going to have to pull my socks up.

[hungryhousewife Profile]

Joan, if you and M really want to master the Subjunctive, why don't you see if there are any Alliance Francaise short courses being run nearby? I know they run summer courses at the very least. I learned French at the AF in London Years ago, then followed it up with a summer course of one month at The University de Paul Vallery in Montpellier! Excellent for grammar and total immersion. Might be worth a try!

HH

[chicken_hot_pot]

This is interesting. I've lived in France for almost 26 years now and quite often find that I'm talking to OH in French rather than English. He's totally bilingual from birth whereas I learnt French here, even though I'd done O Level French at school. First thing I discovered was that what you learn at school isn't anything like the language they actually speak here.

The other evening we were at an all French speaking do and we were chatting away to people in French, but English to each other. Someone noticed while we were talking together and spoke to me in English, so I replied in the same language. She then presumed that I didn't speak French, until I started talking to her in French. She was with other friends who were non English speakers.

I hate it when someone speaks to me in English when there are others there who don't understand and automatically go into French. We watch French TV almost all the time, but do listen to Radio 4 as much as possible.

I would never say I was 100% bilingual because my written French is terrible, but I can hold my own when necessary.

[Joanbunting Profile]

Hi and thanks for the thoughts. I am perfectly happy to be in an entirely French environment, council meetings, village events etc hold no terrors for me and M is perfectly at home in any skill, reading, writing, speaking whatever even with legal/official matters which is where, if I had to stand on my own feet, I would come unstuck.

Actually I am not very confident with people I don't know in any language

I did O-level too - and failed miserably. The first time I ever spoke the language was at the oral exam

We tend to speak French to each other when there are French speakers around and a sort of mixture when we are at home - if matters French then that language but if discussing, for example, a book or a radio programme (I am a radio 4 addict too CHP) then it is English.

My written French is dire too - but without M's help my English is not wonderful!

HH M has perfect command of the subjunctive.His French friends tease him that he speaks and writes far better French than them. I remember him doing a revision lesson over the phone to DD when she started at university. I think my trouble is I am lazy and don't really see the point. I have always put communication as top priority

[Stokey Sue Profile]

My French is pretty good - i can read, I can understand and I can usually make myself understood

However, I am embarassingly aware that when I open my mouth I sound like the mirror image of Arsene Wenger

Arsene: Male, French, baritone voice, speaks perfectly understandable English in a an accent so strong it can be hard to follow
Sue: Female, English, soprano voice, speaks perfectly understandable French in a an accent so strong it can be hard to follow

French OH and I, living in England, mostly spoke English - or we thought we did, non-Francophone vistors were not convinced, apparently we spoke a very personal brand of Franglais (or possibly Frenglish) Mum gave us the Miles Kington Franglais books - he found them hilarious.