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One man's meat

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One man's meat

Postby Global_Worming » Mon Jul 02, 2012 8:12 am

I was first told I had kidneys stones about 10 yrs ago.They remained pretty much dormant till a year after we moved here and we started growing our own veg and I started eating healthy.
Last yr at the annual stone measuring they informed me that they had grown to a dangerous size, I was lucky that I passed and captured one for the brilliant Nhs to test.
The consultant advised me to take advantage of a programme run by a fantastic diet specialist who found the fruit and veg that caused the growth.Amongst the banned list are.Leeks, Spinach Tomatoes,Chard, Green Peppers, Strawbs, Beans ect ect.I also have to eat 3 of these every day, 2 eggs, a piece of cheese, butter, milk and yog.They also took great care in finding the best drug to control my bodies over production of uric acid that makes my stones grow.
Last Tuesday the Consultant spent two hrs removing the stones :thumbsup
This was the first time I have been an inpatient for 11yrs and the change in this NHS hospital was remarkable.Even the food was edible. :clap :clap :clap

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Stokey Sue » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:29 am

Glad you had a good experience GW :thumbsup

Moderrn procedures I know are much better than they used to be, but stones are not pleasant. though I'm glad i only know this at second hand!

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Re: One man's meat

Postby hungryhousewife » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:35 pm

Hi Sakkarin - Poor you having to 'pass' one! I gather it's worse than child birth, and that's bad enough!!

I'm astonished that that was the diet they gave you. I remember a woman who used to house sit for my parents being told that she'd have to have her stones removed and she absolutely refused, so they said (about 20 years ago) that the only way she could avoid the op was to go on a totally fat free diet. She did, lost several stone, and didn't need the op. How can things have changed so much?? Sue - any ideas??

HH

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Stokey Sue » Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:40 pm

hungryhousewife wrote:Hi Sakkarin - Poor you having to 'pass' one! I gather it's worse than child birth, and that's bad enough!!

I'm astonished that that was the diet they gave you. I remember a woman who used to house sit for my parents being told that she'd have to have her stones removed and she absolutely refused, so they said (about 20 years ago) that the only way she could avoid the op was to go on a totally fat free diet. She did, lost several stone, and didn't need the op. How can things have changed so much?? Sue - any ideas??

HH

HH Slow down!

It's Global Worming (not Sakkarin) with the stones

The totally fat free diet was (and still is) for gallstones, not for kidney stones - eating fat makes the gall bladder squeeze the stones, very painful & potentially quite nasty

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Re: One man's meat

Postby jeral » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:39 pm

Hi and glad glad to hear that all seems to be well now, Global_Worming. I wish you a speedy recovery / recuperation; I regard any surgery as being unnerving so take it easy, yes?

I know nothing about kidney stones or uric acid at all. Did anyone tell you what causes them in the first place? It's odd that some veg are associated with growth of the stones, if I'm reading it rightly. As your title includes "meat", I notice that the do/don't eat list doesn't seem to include any in either category... Is it still on the menu or will you be doing a Nigella and raiding the fridge at midnight?

Take care.

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Sakkarin » Mon Jul 02, 2012 6:58 pm

Not guilty!!! However I am just getting over what I believe was gout in my big toe (although I didn't go to the doctor...) which is also caused by that wretched uric acid stuff. Ouch.

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Stokey Sue » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:17 pm

@ jeral

I think GW is quoting the phrase "one man's meat is another man's poison", in which meat simply means "food" (slightly archaic use)

We all make uric acid, some of us can overdo it if we get the right raw materials in our foods, I'm no expert but my best friend was part of a research team on the topic some 25 years ago. The culprits then were thought to be little beggars called purines, not sure if they've narrowed it down further now, I expect so. Found in many veg and fruit, and red wine, also red meat & offal. But you need the predisposition (genetic) as well as the diet to trigger the stone formation = I don't have the predisposition and can eat all those things without developing stones (sorry GW)


@Sakkarin
For some reason gout really likes to lurk in the big toe - if it comes back do get it checked out, not least to make sure it isn't heading for your kidneys, there is useful treatment to be had these days for both pain & underlying damage. Incidentally my dad though he had gout - when I got the chiropodist to have a look he had a slightly unusual ingrowing toenail, the inflammation was just in the right [wrong] place to fool him!

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Wokman » Mon Jul 02, 2012 7:49 pm

I have had gout several times, the thing that seems to trigger it with me is asparagus. I have no idea why, but I do know that it hurts more than I can describe in words on a message board without being banned for bad language ;)

I love asparagus and I still eat it even though I know I will suffer the consequences later (I'm just a glutton for punishment) :roll:

My sister suffered with kidney stones and she went through terrible pain and then she went on the Atkins diet, it did her more harm than good.

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Sakkarin » Mon Jul 02, 2012 11:05 pm

I first had it maybe 18 months or so ago, but had completely forgotten about it, so it was rather annoying to realise it had come back. For a week or so it was deadly, hobbling around, screaming every now and then, bags of frozen peas, and very uncomfortable nights. Now it's nearly gone, but the joint still hurts, so I wonder if that's arthritis set in for good now. But it's funny how quickly you forget the worst of the pain once it's gone.

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Global_Worming » Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:59 am

Stokey Sue wrote:@ jeral

I think GW is quoting the phrase "one man's meat is another man's poison", in which meat simply means "food" (slightly archaic use)

We all make uric acid, some of us can overdo it if we get the right raw materials in our foods, I'm no expert but my best friend was part of a research team on the topic some 25 years ago. The culprits then were thought to be little beggars called purines, not sure if they've narrowed it down further now, I expect so. Found in many veg and fruit, and red wine, also red meat & offal. But you need the predisposition (genetic) as well as the diet to trigger the stone formation = I don't have the predisposition and can eat all those things without developing stones (sorry GW)
Don't be sorry SS I never found my dearly departed stones to be that much of a problem, in fact the reason I had them removed was because some of the countries we travel to dont have the fantastic NHS and my travel insurance would not cover them.
I was asked if I suffered from gout (no) they did not mention purines only the oxalate contents of food.
You mention red wine, green grapes are low oxalate red grapes are high, green peppers are high oxalate, red are low, I think green toms are low and red are def high so the colour of the veg and the ripeness of the fruit is not relevant?

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Global_Worming » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:47 am

Wokman wrote:I have had gout several times, the thing that seems to trigger it with me is asparagus. I have no idea why, but I do know that it hurts more than I can describe in words on a message board without being banned for bad language ;)

I love asparagus and I still eat it even though I know I will suffer the consequences later (I'm just a glutton for punishment) :roll:

My sister suffered with kidney stones and she went through terrible pain and then she went on the Atkins diet, it did her more harm than good.
Wok Asparagus has low oxalate.The guy in the next bed to me suffered from stones and gout.One of his stones was triggering the number of times he went to the loo.His most embarrassing moment was because of the gout he could not get to a toilet quick enough and he wet himself in public.

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Stokey Sue » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:29 am

Global_Worming wrote:
Stokey Sue wrote:@ jeral

I think GW is quoting the phrase "one man's meat is another man's poison", in which meat simply means "food" (slightly archaic use)

We all make uric acid, some of us can overdo it if we get the right raw materials in our foods, I'm no expert but my best friend was part of a research team on the topic some 25 years ago. The culprits then were thought to be little beggars called purines, not sure if they've narrowed it down further now, I expect so. Found in many veg and fruit, and red wine, also red meat & offal. But you need the predisposition (genetic) as well as the diet to trigger the stone formation = I don't have the predisposition and can eat all those things without developing stones (sorry GW)
Don't be sorry SS I never found my dearly departed stones to be that much of a problem, in fact the reason I had them removed was because some of the countries we travel to dont have the fantastic NHS and my travel insurance would not cover them.
I was asked if I suffered from gout (no) they did not mention purines only the oxalate contents of food.
You mention red wine, green grapes are low oxalate red grapes are high, green peppers are high oxalate, red are low, I think green toms are low and red are def high so the colour of the veg and the ripeness of the fruit is not relevant?



So as I said they seem to be more worried about oxalate than purines for stones, or at least your stones at present; I think purines still hold good for gout. but I could be ou tof date there


Demonstrates why you need to go to see the experts the best information changes as research progresses

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Re: One man's meat

Postby hungryhousewife » Tue Jul 03, 2012 6:45 pm

Stokey Sue wrote:HH Slow down!

It's Global Worming (not Sakkarin) with the stones

The totally fat free diet was (and still is) for gallstones, not for kidney stones - eating fat makes the gall bladder squeeze the stones, very painful & potentially quite nasty


:lol: :lol:
Sorry Sue! You are quite right! I often take a glance at the avatars and go for it, rather than looking at the names! :oops: :oops:

Also, I am a very guilty party as far as having a very good long term memory and precisely no medical knowledge, and had of course forgotten that the poor woman was suffering with gall stones - and not kidney stones! :oops:

It all sounds pretty nasty, anyway! We went to lunch with friends, and one of the men, who was very fit and healthy generally, was suffering dreadfully with gout. It had come on suddenly very badly. His wife said he was going through rather a lot of stress with job and ill parents. Do you know if stress help can create the conditions for gout?

HH

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Re: One man's meat

Postby karadekoolaid » Tue Jul 03, 2012 9:53 pm

I'd always heard that gout was brought on by a surfeit of Port.
And tomatoes!

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Wokman » Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:09 pm

Global_Worming wrote:Wok Asparagus has low oxalate.The guy in the next bed to me suffered from stones and gout.One of his stones was triggering the number of times he went to the loo.His most embarrassing moment was because of the gout he could not get to a toilet quick enough and he wet himself in public.


My GP gave me Ibuprofen tablets for the gout, they do help a lot more than a bag of frozen peas I must admit.
Having looked at this website:
http://www.patient.co.uk/health/Gout.htm
I can see other things that could cause a flare up as I love raw herring, sardines and mussels and I am partial to a drink or two.
I think we all have certain foods that do not agree with us in some way or another, but having said that I can't think of anything I would like to give up.

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Re: One man's meat

Postby hungryhousewife » Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:14 pm

karadekoolaid wrote:I'd always heard that gout was brought on by a surfeit of Port.
And tomatoes!


That's what I thought - similar to arthritis - too much acid in the system causing a build up of uric acid crystals (is that right??)

But I think one's system can become too acidic due to various things - not just diet. In fact, I think someone told me that cancer patients tend to have a very acidic system.

HH

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Re: One man's meat

Postby jeral » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:33 am

Stokey Sue wrote:@ jeral

I think GW is quoting the phrase "one man's meat is another man's poison", in which meat simply means "food" (slightly archaic use)

[clip...]

Many thanks for the information and a lot also variously posted after.

I did understand that the thread title referred to an age-old quotation, I just don't understand where meat fits into the overall picture, if it does at all - maybe it's neutral or irrelevant if neither protein nor fat are acidic. Milk & derived products are acidic yet they were on the "good" list, hence brain hurting...

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Global_Worming » Thu Jul 05, 2012 8:21 am

jeral wrote:
Stokey Sue wrote: hence brain hurting...
blimey jeral your brain's are in your pants as :) well
Last edited by Global_Worming on Fri Jul 06, 2012 8:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: One man's meat

Postby jeral » Thu Jul 05, 2012 5:49 pm

Is it? Oh dear, I'd never have thought to look there... I'll let you know if I find it :mrgreen:

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Re: One man's meat

Postby Renée » Wed Jul 25, 2012 11:17 pm

GW, please could you give me more information about the programme run by the diet specialist? is there anything online?

I've been meaning to join in with this thread, because I do suffer from the occasional attack of gout, so I've been doing a lot of reading and have found an excellent book called Beating Gout, A Sufferer's Guide to Living Pain Free, which is by Victor Konshin. Richard J. Johnson, M.D., FACP, Gout & Uric Acid Education Society says "An excellent and clinically useful handbook on how to recognise asnd manage this condition that is useful for both the patient and the physician.

I do avoid, or cut back on foods which are high in purines, such as mackerel, anchovies, red meats, lentils and other protein foods. Dairy foods are fine and tofu. I just need to find many interesting ways of cooking tofu! I do have high uric acid levels in my blood which can be lowered by losing weight, but losing too quickly can trigger a gout attack.

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