Yet another foodscare :-(

[Sakkarin Profile]

Very helpful link in the previous Guardian article goes to this article which says completely the opposite; that coffee is evil, particularly for people like me, the wrong side of 55...

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyl ... death-rate

[Petronius Profile]

Thanks for the link Sakks, saw the headline but hadn't planned on getting the Guardian today. Certainly made me smile and, no doubt, a lot of others as well, including Starbucks, Costa and so on.


However, I'll stick to my one a day – caffeine and tannin are known to excitate bladders. A couple of years ago OH, a great coffee lover, suddenly became light headed from drinking coffee. Has the occasional cup of decaf now - as agreed on the other thread, old age doesn't come on its own.

Boringly, I clicked on the link to gain access to the study but can only read the abstract.

Sue, any idea what 'reverse causality' means in this context? It's in the abstract of the second study.

Sakks, did you read the piece in yesterday's Guardian on a way to improve working memory, lower blood pressure, reduce prostate cancer and look younger for the over 50's. As it's not food related I won't mention it here.

[Stokey Sue Profile]

I remember an article in a medical journal years ago that had reviewed all the evidence and concluded coffee was fine unless you actually, genuinely, have a bad reaction to it, which is much rarer than people think

Or you are a Norwegian farmer and leave it on the stove all morning, that really is quite unhealthy

The authors thought that people were scared of coffee because it can give you a bit of a buzz, and to some people that feels dangerous.

I've not seen anything since that really contradicts it

[jeral Profile]

Not food, but antibiotics now - article in BMJ suggesting that one can stop once seemingly cured. GP bodies say not so and should complete whatever course is given. GPs would say that, or be accused of over-prescribing potentially encouraging the growing immunity to them. Apparently the BMJ study was quite small.

So, another "Don't really know"?

[Sakkarin Profile]

Seeing that issue on the telly prompted me to find out for once and for all what the real situation was with alcohol/antibiotics (having got friends who forgo alcohol with religious zeal when they are on antibiotics). I've always suspected it was more about the powers that be trying to scare us off alcohol. This article confirms my suspicions.

http://www.nhs.uk/chq/Pages/871.aspx?CategoryID=73

It's a long time since I've been in a position to put it to the test however, I can't even remember the last time I was prescribed antibiotics.

[Stokey Sue Profile]

The alcohol / antibiotic thing cones up with monotonous regularity

1. The short answer is that if you really can't take alcohol with it, there will be a warning on the dispensing label, and another on the government approved Patient Information Leaflet (PIL). Also the pharmacist will probably give a verbal warning. If you don't get or lose the PIL it's usually available online

2. Point #1 applies to very few antibiotics, the one you are most likely to encounter is metronidazole (Flagyl). Really never ever take alcohol with that, you'll feel terrible

3. As far as I know the usual antibiotics (penicillins, cephalosporins) do not interact in any way with alcohol. There has never been any real indication that they might

4. There's a decent argument says if you are ill enough to take antibiotics, you should at least consider if you are well enough to drink alcohol!

5. A lot of people thinks the idea that you can't mix penicillin and alcohol comes from WW2 when penicillin was a rare and costly miracle. Nobody knew if alcohol would affect it, so quite rightly they didn't mix them

6. If in doubt ask the pharmacist. Not your hairdresser, barman or best mate (unless suitably qualified)

Not at all sure about shortening courses of antibiotics, I won't be doing it myself at least until it settles

ETA I really don't see how that article "confirms your suspicions" as the severe reactions mentioned related to tinidazole and metronidazole, I wrote point #2 before I read it. But point #1 should cover it really, you won't get a warning on the other antibiotics

[Rainbow Profile]

That's a good summary Sue, thanks for that.
Point 4 is a simple and good one!!

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

I thought the problem with alcohol and antibiotics also was how drunk you get when taking them.
Like drinking spirits with a straw, you can get blotto on them. Where usually you would not be so affected.

I'm inclined to think you should take the whole course.
As a friend of mine's infection came back worse when she hadn't finished the prescribed amount. She was in a dreadful state the second run.


Interesting to hear from you Sue, that the majority don't interact.

[Stokey Sue Profile]

I thought the problem with alcohol and antibiotics also was how drunk you get when taking them.
Like drinking spirits with a straw, you can get blotto on them. Where usually you would not be so affected

As far as I know that's urban myth, I certainly know of no scientific basis for it, except my #4 and perhaps not eating well might make you feel woozier sooner, but not necessarily a direct interaction. Even if weren't taking meds, being ill + eating less + drinking might be a bad recipe

[Gillthepainter Profile Website]

Yes mine's anecdotal.

In particular a student friend of mine got super blotto on just a couple of drinks. Who was on antibiotics.
And we put it down to that, but perhaps she hadn't eaten anything.

Could be down to extreme dieting too, as she was going to weightwatchers if I remember right.

[Joanbunting Profile]

And now we have chlorine washed chicken and antobiotic and hormone stuffed meat to look forwars to apparently. Yipee Thank goodness for free choice -if we prepare our food from scratch of course.

[Renée Profile]

Would that apply to organic chickens as well, Joan? Mind you, there's chlorine in tap water, but I never wash chickens. Hormone stuffed meat? Is that in France, Joan. I know that hormones are used in the US.

[jeral Profile]

I don't think there's any plan to make chlorine-washing obligatory here (it's not in the US), just that the UK government might sign a trade deal with the US that permits it after the UK has left the EU.

It's banned in the EU currently, although some EU experts' findings are that it's an acceptable practice apparently. The EU parliament policy dept wrote a summary, but drew no conclusion, here:
http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/e ... O_STU(2016)578022_EN.pdf
It opens as a .pdf. Go to the menu on Page 4, then click on clause 2.1.7 Chlorine-washed poultry.

[Renée Profile]

It seems that it wasn't available, jeral and I was re-directed here, so didn't find the information.

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en

Update: The end part of the link wasn't underlined, so I copied and will do a Google search.

[jeral Profile]

Sorry folks. Renée, try this link:

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/STUD/2016/578022/EXPO_STU(2016)578022_EN.pdf

[Renée Profile]

Thanks very much for the link, jeral. I found it very interesting to read through. Isn't salmonella in poultry found within the flesh, though and not just on the outside?

[Sakkarin Profile]

I've not read it all, will at some stage, but in skimming through I found a secion on "Genetically Engineered Fish". I didn't even know there was such a thing. Scary.

[jeral Profile]

Thanks very much for the link, jeral. I found it very interesting to read through. Isn't salmonella in poultry found within the flesh, though and not just on the outside?

[my bold]
I don't think that's the case as egg salmonella was found as much on the outer shell than within the egg itself so it must travel by contact contamination. I'm sure it'll be on the Net somewhere, so just my view.

Sakkarin, GM fish - me neither. This Wikipedia page has a brief (meaning readable) synopsis of the AquaAdvantage salmon developed that seems to be the subject at issue (currently).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AquAdvantage_salmon

There were weird things as far back as 1995, e.g. inserting tiger genes into corn, being promoted as a saviour that'd feed the world. At the time I thought "Wow, great". That was before learning about ecological ramifications of messing about with what Mother Nature intended (a butterfly flaps its wings...).

Joanbunting, I was surprised to read in clause 2.1.2 re hormones (references given):

"Meanwhile, despite differing regulatory stances on the use of recombinant bovine somatotropin (rBST), which US federal regulations allow but EU rules prohibit, US-produced butter, lactose, milk albumins, concentrated milk proteins, and milk powders circulate within the EU market and European dairy products are sold in the US."
---

Another worrying thing is that the US FDA according to some reports is devolving more safety checks to self certification, including factory inspections. We know that in the UK this has led to problems, e.g. horsemeat in beef burgers. There are some scandal stories about bad practices in huge meat processing plants in the US, not surprising since the dictum is "work faster, faster".

[Stokey Sue Profile]

You won't find bacteria within the solid meat of chicken or any other aninal for that matter unless it's obviously off

The bacteria are on the outside, and especially inside the gut so inside the cavity or the non-skin side

This is why you are recommended not to wash chicken as it is more likely the spraying and dripping contaminated water round your kitchen which will spread infection than to remove it

Fortunately both salmonella and e. coli are delicate, and don't stand up to much heat, so cooking to above 70 C does the job

This also explains why many people are happy to eat a very rare steak, as by the time it's an attractive brown, the surface (which is all that matters) will be safe. Many authorities recommend cooking burgers mire thoroughly as mincing spreads tge outside of the oiece of meat throughout the patty

[Renée Profile]

Thank you for the information, Sue. I'm as careful as I can be when handling raw chickens, even sterilising the taps after washing my hands. I do use an anti-bacterial hand wash in the kitchen and make sure that it goes under my fingernails too.

Regarding salmonella, I was thinking more of the freerange chickens feeding habits, ingesting all kinds of bacteria from the soil which might have found their way to the insides of the chickens. I can remember years ago, reading warnings about duck eggs too, because the outside reared ducks have similar feeding habits and the eggs could be contaminated by salmonella as a result.